Responses to Cretans

Table of Contents

Nick 7-30-02

Subj:	responce
Date:	7/30/03 12:40:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From:
To:	JCnot4me@aol.com
Sent from the Internet (Details)

Sir,

I would like to respond to your "Cretans are always liars"

I honestly don't feel that this can be justified in the way you intend it to be.

I see you point in some ways though

Always- all one' s life, forever, continually continually, without pause

But it seems to me that in your complete technicality when interpreting the statement it should mean they are not eating, sleeping, etc, but in a constant state of lying.

Common sense will tell you no one lies 24/7 like you said, but "always" does mean 24/7.

(Especially the degree you are taking it to) But liar is not completely in unity to what you claim it is

liar . teller of lies (Webster 21st century)

If I become completely technical on this when I tell two lies I am a liar

I know no one who has not lied twice. Two teller of lies are liars. Right?

If you lied you are a liar. Aren't you always a liar regardless if you lie again?

What overturnes you from not being always being a liar?

If you stopped telling lies are you not a liar anymore? Technically no, because you told a lie which will CONTINUALLY be a lie so therefore you remain a liar since it cannot be undone. (Paul could have said this about most of the world)

If Cretans told a lie they are always liars considering that their lies are always lies therefore making them liars.

Besides, you chose to interpret this so technically why don't you go all the way

Always, never ceasing to lie (the way you interpret it) or never ceasing to be liars

Does it matter if Cretans lied a little or a lot? They are still liars

Always telling lies or Always liars

1. If I tell a lie then tell the truth am I no longer a liar? I can't undo that lie so it remains, truth does not cover it, neither does not telling an additional one.

Technically , telling lies will always make you a liar(teller of lies) regardless

I believe there is a flaw in your logic.

C'mon, I know want he meant. You can interpret any way you want to. If you want it to be incorrect, it can be, but you can't make it an error. from a technical point of view he is still correct (no offense but this below gave me more trouble)

Paul telling us not to judge (Romans 14:1) and saying he doesn't even judge himself (1 Corinthians 4:3) but then says he has "already passed judgement" and tells the church to expel a sinning believer (1 Corinthians 5:3-2) gave me more trouble understanding

It seems to me that your eagerness to find a fault in the Bible has caused you to error in finding an error

But I could be need of correction if you are up for it

Nick (the Christian defenses to your accusation is embarrassing!)

Mark Smith's Response: As I wrote at the very end of the Cretan essay:

In the years since, some Christians have claimed to have found an “out” for this contradiction. They say that Paul calls the Cretans “liars” and being a liar does NOT preclude that occasionally they may tell the truth, just like being a “murderer” does NOT mean that one is murdering anyone and everyone 24/7. My response to this is that Paul does not merely say they are “liars” but that they are ALWAYS liars, which to me DOES preclude them ever telling a truth.

It was not I, but Paul, who put in the "always" qualifier. Yes, someone who is a murderer is not murdering 24/7, but that is not part of the definition. As for murder, it only takes one to earn the label "murderer". Now as for lying, we have all told lies- Jesus included (see my Mt 24-34 What The Scholars Say ), so none of us is perfect, but one lie usually doesn't make any of us earn the label of "liar". A liar would be someone who has in general earned that reputation over time- and that usually takes more than just one lie. In fact, the best liars in the world mostly tell the truth, so that when they DO have to lie, people believe the lie. Now the problem with what Paul wrote was not that these people were liars, but that they were ALWAYS liars. This is like a super category above and beyond of just being a liar. This elevates the Cretans to the point where they can't tell anything BUT lies. To me, this is absurd, but hey! I didn't write it- I'm just reporting on it. The fact that what Paul wrote doesn't make any sense is obvious. That being the case, then why are fundy Christians so rabid about defending this nonsense of Paul's??? Why can't they just admit that maybe Paul screwed up here? Must they become irrational in their defenses of inerrancy???