Responses to Entire Sactification

Dear Set Free:

I found your article on the internet and was intrigued. I am a Nazarene, and have been all my life, however that did not make me a Christian. I accepted Christ at 18 and have been living with Him ever since. I'm not writing you to argue the point of entire sanctification with you, I would never do that. I just find your view point interesting. Just a though, maybe you should study the doctrine ( look it up in the Manual for the CON -- article of faith #10) and you will see that it is not even close to what you have perceived it to be.

Mark here}     So, when in my online essay I quote from Beacon Hill and Nazarene Publishing House, and when I quote William Greathouse and Purkiser, these are now somehow NOT normative for Nazarene theology just because you say so??? Huh???? That's like saying the Pope doesn't speak for Catholics. I think maybe YOU should read your own church's literature on this, THEN come back to me.

I understand that you may have a beef with the Nazarene church, that comes out pretty strong in your writing, and I'm OK with that. I just think that if you take a look at the doctrine for what it actually is, not what you think it is you won't be so quick to think that every Nazarene on the planet sees themselves as perfect. I believe

Mark here}   It doesn't matter worth a rats ass what YOU believe. YOU are not your church. I quoted from Nazarene Publishing House etc, and I think they speak for the church more than you do.

that sanctification reconciles you with God (that is a scriptural truth, not a doctrine), and therefore make you pure ONLY THROUGH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. I know thousands of Nazarenes, and I don't know a single one that sees himself/herself as perfect. I am sorry you have been led to believe that. I'd be shocked if you actually took the time to research this further, but you never know. Until then, I hope you take this for what it is. I am not trying to "win your soul", or say the Nazarene church is perfect, I just think that holiness is misunderstood by a lot of people when it doesn't have to be.

Without wax,
Andy

Hey, in response to your article, "Entire Sanctification=Entire Nonsense", I just thought you might be interested to see more of the Nazarene doctrine (also, straight from the Nazarene website). To cut and paste as you did in your article allows the same kind interpretation as cutting and pasting scripture. Looking at it as a whole changes meaning.

Mark here}
Hey to you too- how are things down at Trevecca??? I had a friend who went to college there.

In answer to your (implied) accusation above that I took things out of context (your "cut and paste" comment), maybe you'd like to give evidence to your accusation that I took my quotes from NAZARENE books written by NAZARENE scholars out of context, rather than just spout off??? Once again, for the BILLIONTH time, a Christian confuses himself with his god, thinking that he can just SAY something (with nothing to back it up) and presto-chango "ex nihlo" it becomes FACT. Can you therefore, since you are NOT Biblegod, back up your charge with some EVIDENCE I took ANYthing out of context in those books???

No, of course not- you can't do that, for you've never even READ the books, have you? For if you HAD read the books, you would have known that the quotes I used were in no wise out of context. Again, it's easier to make IGNORANT knee-jerk responses than to sit down, crack open a book, and do some actual REAL research.

As to what THOSE Nazarene scholars contradicting maybe what OTHER Nazarene scholars have said, welcome to the wonderful world of "Christians Just Can't Stop Arguing Amongst Themselves"- what else is new? The Apostles used to argue amongst themselves all the time and the tradition just grew from there.

Until the OFFICIAL Nazarene governing body officially denounces the books (published by the OFFICIAL "Nazarene Publishing House") and scholars in question, I and everyone else with a BRAIN will keep on quoting from these books and scholars. Sorry! And your long-winded quote (see below) from the Nazarat web page IN NO WISE changes what Nazarene scholars Dr. Greathouse and Dr. Purkiser said in their books published by the Nazarene church.

V. Sin, Original and Personal

5. We believe that sin came into the world through the disobedience of our first parents, and death by sin. We believe that sin is of two kinds: original sin or depravity, and actual or personal sin.

5.1. We believe that original sin, or depravity, is that corruption of the nature of all the offspring of Adam by reason of which everyone is very far gone from original righteousness or the pure state of our first parents at the time of their creation, is averse to God, is without spiritual life, and inclined to evil, and that continually. We further believe that original sin continues to exist with the new life of the regenerate, until [eradicated] the heart is fully cleansed by the baptism with the Holy Spirit.²

Mark here} You know, with such pompous claims as these, you'd think the Nazarenes would have done studies and polls to document that Nazarenes are by far the most moral and well-adjusted folks on the planet. After all, IF what they are claiming is TRUE, THEN Nazarenes would far outshine the rest of mankind in righteousness. I'm willing to go out on a limb here, and guess the reason such studies have never made the light of day is that THEY WOULD SHOW JUST THE OPPOSITE- they would show that Nazarenes are NO BETTER than other peoples; in fact, it MAY even show they are WORSE.

For further information on how Christianity doesn't always live up to its pompous claims, see my "Christianity Doesn't Work as Advertised" essay at: Morality

5.2. We believe that original sin differs from actual sin in that it constitutes an inherited propensity to actual sin for which no one is accountable until its divinely provided remedy is neglected or rejected.

5.3. We believe that actual or personal sin is a voluntary violation of a known law of God by a morally responsible person. It is therefore not to be confused with involuntary and inescapable shortcomings, infirmities, faults, mistakes, failures, or other deviations from a standard of perfect conduct that are the residual effects of the Fall. However, such innocent effects do not include attitudes or responses contrary to the spirit of Christ, which may properly be called sins of the spirit. We believe that personal sin is primarily and essentially a violation of the law of love; and that in relation to Christ sin may be defined as unbelief.

(Original sin: Genesis 3; 6:5; Job 15:14; Psalm 51:5; Jeremiah 17:9-10; Mark 7:21-23; Romans 1:18-25; 5:12-14; 7:1-8:9; 1 Corinthians 3:1-4; Galatians 5:16-25; 1 John 1:7-8)

(Personal sin: Matthew 22:36-40 {with 1 John 3:4}; John 8:34-36; 16:8-9; Romans 3:23; 6:15-23; 8:18-24; 14:23; 1 John 1:9-2:4; 3:7-10)

VI. Atonement²

6. We believe that Jesus Christ, by His sufferings, by the shedding of His own blood, and by His [meritorious] death on the Cross, made a full atonement for all human sin, and that this Atonement is the only ground of salvation, and that it is sufficient for every individual of Adam's race. The Atonement is graciously efficacious for the salvation of the irresponsible and for the children in innocency but is efficacious for the salvation of those who reach the age of responsibility only when they repent and believe.

Mark here} Regarding children reaching "the age of responsibility", it would THEN be better (according to Christian logic) to kill ALL children BEFORE they reach the age where MOST of them will REJECT Jesus, would it not??? See my essay "Abortion: The Christian Thing to Do" on my web page: Abortion

(Isaiah 53:5-6, 11; Mark 10:45; Luke 24:46-48; John 1:29; 3:14-17; Acts 4:10-12; Romans 3:21-26; 4:17-25; 5:6-21; 1 Corinthians 6:20; 2 Corinthians 5:14-21; Galatians 1:3-4; 3:13-14; Colossians 1:19-23; 1 Timothy 2:3-6; Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 2:9; 9:11-14; 13:12; 1 Peter 1:18-21; 2:19-25; 1 John 2:1-2)

VII. [Free Agency] Prevenient Grace²

7. We believe that the human race's creation in Godlikeness included ability to choose between right and wrong, and that thus human beings were made morally responsible; that through the fall of Adam they became depraved so that they cannot now turn and prepare themselves by their own natural strength and works to faith and calling upon God. But we also believe that the grace of God through Jesus Christ is freely bestowed upon all people, enabling all who will to turn from sin to righteousness, believe on Jesus Christ for pardon and cleansing from sin, and follow good works pleasing and acceptable in His sight.

We believe that all persons, though in the possession of the experience of regeneration and entire sanctification, may fall from grace and apostatize and, unless they repent of their sins, be hopelessly and eternally lost.

(Godlikeness and moral responsibility: Genesis 1:26-27; 2:16-17; Deuteronomy 28:1-2; 30:19; Joshua 24:15; Psalm 8:3-5; Isaiah 1:8-10; Jeremiah 31:29-30; Ezekiel 18:1-4; Micah 6:8; Romans 1:19-20; 2:1-16; 14:7-12; Galatians 6:7-8

Natural inability: Job 14:4; 15:14; Psalms 14:1-4; 51:5; John 3:6a; Romans 3:10-12; 5:12-14, 20a; 7:14-25

Free grace and works of faith: Ezekiel 18:25-26; John 1:12-13; 3:6b; Acts 5:31; Romans 5:6-8, 18; 6:15-16, 23; 10:6-8; 11:22; 1 Corinthians 2:9-14; 10:1-12; 2 Corinthians 5:18-19; Galatians 5:6; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 2:12-13; Colossians 1:21-23; 2 Timothy 4:10a; Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 2:1-3; 3:12-15; 6:4-6; 10:26-31; James 2:18-22; 2 Peter 1:10-11; 2:20-22)

²Constitutional changes adopted by the 2001 General Assembly are in the process of ratification by the district assemblies at the time of printing. Where changes are being made, words in italics are new words and words in brackets [] are words being deleted.

VIII. Repentance

8. We believe that repentance, which is a sincere and thorough change of the mind in regard to sin, involving a sense of personal guilt and a voluntary turning away from sin, is demanded of all who have by act or purpose become sinners against God. The Spirit of God gives to all who will repent the gracious help of penitence of heart and hope of mercy, that they may believe unto pardon and spiritual life.

(2 Chronicles 7:14; Psalms 32:5-6; 51:1-17; Isaiah 55:6-7; Jeremiah 3:12-14; Ezekiel 18:30-32; 33:14-16; Mark 1:14-15; Luke 3:1-14; 13:1-5; 18:9-14; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 17:30-31; 26:16-18; Romans 2:4; 2 Corinthians 7:8-11; 1 Thessalonians 1:9; 2 Peter 3:9)

IX. Justification, Regeneration, and Adoption

9. We believe that justification is the gracious and judicial act of God by which He grants full pardon of all guilt and complete release from the penalty of sins committed, and acceptance as righteous, to all who believe on Jesus Christ and receive Him as Lord and Savior.

Mark here} Ahhhh, the old "Blank Check" morality the Christians actually are brainless enough to BRAG about, rather than hide in shame over. The belief that no matter HOW bad, just a simple "I'm sorry!" wipes the slate clean as a baby's smile. Yes, old Adolf, a minute away from death, had only to utter the magic words "I'm sorry" and presto! He's no longer accountable for the actions of MURDERING millions and millions of people- can't be prosecuted by Biblegod, can't even be hated by his FELLOW Christians. Had some American Baptist or Nazarene soldiers reached Adolf before he died, and had he made his "I'm sorry" to Biblegod, these soldiers would have had to HUG ADOLF HITLER as a fellow forgiven Christian, rather than blow his brains out. Yes, blank check morality- do whatever the hell you want, then cash in your "Get out of Jail Free" card whenever you want, over and over even. Jeesh! No WONDER Christians are less moral than us Atheists- they have no REASON to be moral.

10. We believe that regeneration, or the new birth, is that gracious work of God whereby the moral nature of the repentant believer is spiritually quickened and given a distinctively spiritual life, capable of faith, love, and obedience.

11. We believe that adoption is that gracious act of God by which the justified and regenerated believer is constituted a son of God.

12. We believe that justification, regeneration, and adoption are simultaneous in the experience of seekers after God and are obtained upon the condition of faith, preceded by repentance; and that to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness.

(Luke 18:14; John 1:12-13; 3:3-8; 5:24; Acts 13:39; Romans 1:17; 3:21-26, 28; 4:5-9, 17-25; 5:1, 16-19; 6:4; 7:6; 8:1, 15-17; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 6:11; 2 Corinthians 5:17-21; Galatians 2:16-21; 3:1-14, 26; 4:4-7; Ephesians 1:6-7; 2:1, 4-5; Philippians 3:3-9; Colossians 2:13; Titus 3:4-7; 1 Peter 1:23; 1 John 1:9; 3:1-2, 9; 4:7; 5:1, 9-13, 18)

X. Entire Sanctification

13. We believe that entire sanctification is that act of God, subsequent to regeneration, by which believers are made free from original sin, or depravity, and brought into a state of entire devotement to God, and the holy obedience of love made perfect.

It is wrought by the baptism with the Holy Spirit, and comprehends in one experience the cleansing of the heart from sin and the abiding, indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, empowering the believer for life and service.

Entire sanctification is provided by the blood of Jesus, is wrought instantaneously by faith, preceded by entire consecration; and to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness.

This experience is also known by various terms representing its different phases, such as "Christian perfection," "perfect love," "heart purity," "the baptism with the Holy Spirit," "the fullness of the blessing," and "Christian holiness."

14. We believe that there is a marked distinction between a pure heart and a mature character. The former is obtained in an instant, the result of entire sanctification; the latter is the result of growth in grace.

We believe that the grace of entire sanctification includes the impulse to grow in grace. However, this impulse must be consciously nurtured, and careful attention given to the requisites and processes of spiritual development and improvement in Christlikeness of character and personality. Without such purposeful endeavor one's witness may be impaired and the grace itself frustrated and ultimately lost.

Essay Title: Entire Sanctification = Entire Nonsense.

Comment on a statement you made.
Your statement = "you must realize that Entire Sanctification teaches Christian Perfection, which means a sinless life; the total removal of not only sin, but even the ability to sin. In other words, a good Nazarene could not make a mistake, a sin, even if he tried! In fact, he couldn't even THINK a sinful thought."

I think that you need to understand that the doctrine of Entire Santification DOES NOT say that those who are entirely sanctified no longer have the ability to sin. I am not sure where you got that idea.

But what you have written is false. Those who are entirely sanctified DO have the ability to sin!

In your essay you quoted W.T. Purkiser saying "...true justification in Christ does away with a life of sin."

Notice that he never said "does away with the ability to sin" which is totally different.

Here is a website that you can visit that answers questions concerning entire sanctification. Notice question #12
http://www.wesleyan.org/sphelps/faq.htm
This is the official website of the Wesleyan Church - Obviously a credible website

Looking forward to your reply,
Bobby

I just wanted to let you know that I recently read your article about entire sanctification and the Church of the Nazarene. I am a licensed minister of the Church of the Nazarene and just wanted to let you in on what we hold sanctification to really be.

First of all, know that I am in no position to tell anybody what to believe. I believe the authority of scripture to be much more powerful than what humans believe the Word to be. I am one of those Nazarenes that goes by what Scripture says and not the Manual. However, as a licensed minister, I do have the responsibility to teach/preach what the Church believes.

I also appreciate the way you actually do research on biblical/church doctrine. There are not a lot of people who do that and just go by what the Manual says without learning it themselves. For that, I applaud you.

Okay here we go. Coming from the Greek world "telios," this perfection John Wesley and us Nazarenes refer to does not mean perfect in the sense of being without blemish or being faultless. This "telios" perfection refers to completing your purpose. An old, raggedy chair that is insanely ugly is still a perfect chair in this sense because it provides one with a place to sit. In the same our "purpose" as humans to become like Christ.

The Church of the Nazarene recognizes that there is no way humans can go a day without sin. However, as we strive to be like Christ, which is our purpose, we are achieving that perfection. This is why Dr. Greathouse refers to entire sanctification as "imperfect perfection." We are perfect because we are striving to be like Christ, even though we will still sin along the journey.

As seen in the Manual of the Church of the Nazarene, we see sanctification as "being made free from original sin." As human beings, we are naturally inclined to do evil because of the Fall. Because of this, every single individual has struggles, weaknesses, and temptations. They are born into us, or more like we are born into them. When we are sanctified, these struggles, tempatations, and weaknesses are no longer struggles, temptations, and weaknesses. We no longer have to face these evils because we have been made free from them. However, even though we are made free from these, we are still going to screw up because after all, we are humans.

So in conclusion, entire sanctification is not the doctrine that we no longer sin, but are able to be made Christ-like, which is our purpose in this life.

I hope this may help in your research as you continue to research Christianity.

God Bless

Subj: Entire Sanctification
Date: 2/25/2004 2:56:59 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:
To: JCnot4me

Hi, My name is Jason Summers. I'm currently a senior at Hobe Sound Christian Academy. For Bible class we are required to wright a paper on entire sanctification. The school I attend is of the Weslian Holiness denomination, although I'm non-denominational, I find myself agreeing with not every aspect of thier doctrine, but a lot of it.
The reason I'm wrighting you is because your information seems to be a little off and I don't think you portray thier paticular doctrine correctly. Entire Sanctification does not mean in any way that the individual cannot sin. It is simply a complete surrender to God and his will. One who experiences this is more likely not to sin than he who has a half hearted commitment to God.
The most important thing is the friut of thier doctrine. I genuinely see Christ through my "holiness" teachers. So they must be doing something right.
Hey man, God bless you, Jason Summers
Email: jasonsummers_50@hotmail.com

Subject: WITHOUT HOLINESS, NO ONE WILL SEE THE LORD.----BIBLICAL.
Date: 10/14/2004 12:44:28 AM Pacific Standard Time
From:
Reply To:
To: JCnot4me

"EXCEPT YOU BE BORN AGAIN,YOU CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD. ANYONE CAN CUT DOWN CHRISTIANS--WHO LOVE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.IF YOU CAN'T LIVE IT, DON'T KNOCK IT.NO--ONE SAID THE NAZARENES ARE PERFECT. WE ARE PERFECT IN HEART TOWARDS GOD.

I HAVE BEEN A NAZARENE ALL MY LIFE, BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE ME ANY BETTER THAN YOU OR ANYONE ELSE .BEING A NAZARENE DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH BEING A CHRISTIAN. SATAN GOES TO CHURCH TOO.UNCHRISTIAN PEOPLE GO TO CHURCH. JESUS SAID,NOT EVERYONE WHO SAYS TO ME ---LORD, LORD, SHALL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, BUT HE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER IN HEAVEN. AND WHAT IS GOD'S WILL. IT'S HIS WILL, THAT ALL PEOPLE SHOULD BE SAVED&THAT NO ONE SHALL PERISH IN AN ETERNAL HELL. PEOPLE NEED TO BE BORN AGAIN. MAY GOD OPEN YOUR BLINDED MIND TO SENSE THE REALITY OF AN ETERNAL GOD WHO LOVES YOU AND GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON FOR YOUR SINS ON CALVARY. ASK GOD TO OPEN YOUR MIND TO UNDERSTAND THE TRUTH OF THE BIBLE.I WAS AN ALCHOHOLIC, INTO DRUGS,BAD LANGUAGE, FILLED WITH ALL UNGODLINESS, ADULTERY, SMOKING,STEALING, ETC FOR MANY YEARS. THE LORD BROUGHT ME TO AN AWAKENING, OF MY NEED OF SALVATION--THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.I ASKED JESUS TO FORGIVE ME OF ALL MY SINS,AND TO COME INTO MY HEART AND SAVE AND MAKE ME WHOLE AND PURE. JESUS SAID, IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, HE IS FAITHFUL AND JUST TO FORGIVE US OUR SINS,AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. THAT IS A PROMISE FROM GOD, AND GOD NEVER BREAKS HIS PROMISES LIKE MAN DOES. SO THIS THING ABOUT NAZARENES----IF YOU WERE WASHED FROM YOUR SINS, AND SAVED, YOU WOULD BE A NEW CREATION IN CHRIST JESUS. SO UNTILL YOU TRY IT, DON'T GO CUTTING UP THE NAZARENES.

DO YOU HAVE THE PEACE AND JOY THAT ONLY JESUS CAN GIVE? IF YOU CONTINUE TO REJECT JESUS IN YOUR LIFE, YOU WILL BE THE ONE WHO WILL BE ON THE LOSING SIDE.I KNOW I AM ON MY WAY TO HEAVEN,WHENEVER THAT TIME COMES. IN THE MEANTIME, I AM REJOICING IN THE LORD. I KNOW WHAT IT IS TO BE DEPRESSED AND SUICIDAL, AND UNHAPPY THE PLEASURES OF THE WORLD ARE ONLY TEMPORARY. WHEN YOUR TIME COMES TO DIE, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO? THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO GET TO HEAVEN.CHOOSE THE RIGHT WAY--PLEASE.

Subject: Nazarenes and Entire Sanctification
Date: 9/2/2005 11:45:04 A.M. Pacific Standard Time
From:
Reply To:
To: JCnot4me

After reading some of Oswald Chamber's works, I was reminded of the Nazarene doctrine of Entire Sanctification. I decided to read some more on the subject to see what current thinking might be. I ran across an article by you, circa 2002?, on the subject. Having grown up in the Church of the Nazarene, I am well acquainted with the doctrine. I attended Olivet Nazarene college one semester (Fall 1952) primarily with the goal of being able to attain that status in my life. Previous to that I had made trips to the altar only a few times attempting to become and stay a Christian. But that semester at Olivet, I concluded I couldn't do it. I still thought others did achieve the lofty status of sinless perfection, but I knew I could never measure up. I decided unless something happened in the future to change me or my situation, I would just have to be lost. Well, something did happen. A young man came into my life that showed me Scriptural passages I didn't ever remember hearing or seeing before. The emphasis on keeping rules and holy living was so strong in my church, I had never understood God's redemptive plan. I learned that Jesus actually died to save sinners and if I would place my trust in him, he had already paid the penalty for my sin and I could trust my soul solely to his keeping. I thoroughly understand the dilemma of thinking Nazarenes like Dr. Greathouse. They don't want to deny the Church's historical positions but they can't quite buy it either. So, they come up with double talk: "imperfect perfection", Isn't that what we now would call an oxymoron?

My heart goes out to those Nazarenes who have never been able to find rest in their Lord and practice what seems to me is self-deception. "I must be perfect to be saved, Therefore, I claim it by faith, even though down inside I know I still make 'mistakes' and 'short comings'. But, I don't ever sin." I cannot sin, therefore I don't.

On the subject of Entire Sanctification, I might accept the idea as a concept, an ultimate mark to keep us aimed in the right direction. Maybe the "high calling in Christ Jesus" that Paul talked about but said he had not yet achieved. It seems axiomatic that anyone who believes they have achieved it have, by definition, proven they haven't. It is kind of like humility. Once you think you have it, you've lost it.

Marv Musgrave
marv9560@aol.com

Mark Smith here} Thanks for the email. The doctrine does put Nazarenes in a bind. What has surprised me is the number of young Nazarenes nowadays who seem to be totally unaware that their church even teaches this! I guess taking naps during sermons might be the popular thing to do now.

Subject: response to article
Date: 11/11/2005 6:17:49 A.M. Pacific Standard Time
From:
Reply To:
To: JCnot4me@aol.com

Hi Mark,
You certainly have a knack for research, or should I say "gift". I thought I would write a short response to what I read on your website. I am a "Nazarene" church member. I didn't grow up in a Christian home, but was always hungry for "something". When I did become a Christian as a teenager, my life and perspective changed. I felt I finally had a purpose and a meaning. The funny thing is I actually have a biblical degree from Lancaster Bible College in PA and was attending a Methodist church when I went through an unexpected and horrific divorce. The church I was attending actually asked me to step down as youth director and from the board despite who was at "fault" for the divorce. I had 2 children 4years and 6 months when "He" left and the local Nazarene church found out about my situation through a friend and started "reaching" out to me. They heard my fridge broke and I lost all of my food and sent someone to fix that and provided meals and helped me with childcare, yard work, etc. It was SO hard for me to accept this help and from a denomination I heard had "cult-like" doctrine. They didn't want anything in return they just showed "Jesus" to me through their actions, acceptance and love. I cautiously started visiting the church and the people were so friendly and "real". I didn't feel brainwashed or trapped just loved. That was 10 years ago and I am still going there.

The pastor knows I don't agree wholeheartedly with all of the doctrine but accepts me, past and all. They have even allowed me to teach, perform solos, lead musicals anything I feel God has gifted me to do. Not once has it been said that we are "sinless".

We all sin and fall short everyday, that's human. The difference is, we are aware of it, convicted and have an obligation to confess and ask forgiveness. Willful disobedience is another story. I am only writing all of this to relay my message. Not every Christian that is a member of any Christian church believes every piece of doctrine at the church they attend. But, I found Christ through His body of believers at this particular church in a BIG way. Our pastor has lymphoma cancer and was given 48 hours to live in March of this year. Thousands of people prayed for him across the country and circled his house asking for God to spare his life. Miraculously He did! This little answer has stirred our church to reach out to the community and do whatever is needed for the sake of christ.

Not to bring people to our church, that is never our goal, but to show love. We've been studying Rick Warren's purpose driven church and life books. There is no greater joy than to serve another person without expecting anything in return. Just like in the upper room when Jesus "washed their feet" even when they didn't feel worthy, because EVERYONE is. Don't think I am in a little bubble, because I am not. My family still doesn't attend church and I am well aware of everything around me, but I am saddened by so many walking aimlessly around without a purpose and so much anger. Thanks for giving me a chance to respond.
Gina

Subject: Hi Mark
Date: 11/28/2005 4:55:19 A.M. Pacific Standard Time
From:
Reply To:
To: JCnot4me

I did a search today on entire sanctification and came across your stuff.

I agree with a lot of what you say. Entire means entire, and it has to mean that a Christian is not sinning. It is the only way that scripture makes any sense and well done for seeing the hypocrisy in the church. Christ died so that we can live without sin...totally. E-mail me if you want to discuss more

Brenda Jackson (Quaker)

Perfection is what true Christianity is all about. But the church does not see it. That's because they are not willing to give up ALL of their sins. And what is the point if God cannot help us with our biggest problem ie sin which is caused through living in a sin filled world, although we are born innocent (I do not accept that we have to suffer for Adam) and having had emotional damage done to us from our parents onwards. We are damaged so we cannot love properly. God can fix this problem easily as He just has to heal the damage to the soul. All of the promises are for this life not the next (I'm not sure I believe in a physical resurrection. Jesus did not have a solid body). Once one is willing to give up all rights to ourselves and submit fully to God and accept anything that he does with us in the future then He can deliver from sin totally. It usually happens somewhere along the line when we find out just how corrupted we are and how even our most selfless act is full of self actually and how much pride we have.

So the church twists and turns and tries to make perfection into something that looks like it, but is not. Read 1John. Whosoever sins is of the devil. Period. But the church has to make this into something else like habitual sin. Wrong. The scripture means what it says simply and strightforwardly. If we are in Christ we do not sin and I have not found any one person today who claims this. But there were some in the past like Wesley and George Fox wgho started the Quakers with this doctrine.

So Mark you are absolutely right. The question is now, what about me? Am I without sin?

Once you are in the state of entire sanctification you do not sin. Not at all. Never. If you do you fall from that state and you are not saved, not justified and not sanctified and therefore outside of Christ. And you can fall from that state. Read Hebrews. I walked in that state for 18 months and did not sin at all not even in my mind. But I have fallen and I am trying to get back again but it is hard and I don't know how to do it.

I wish I was there now so i could tell you that I am without sin. I know that I am not in that state because when you are in that state it is as easy as anything not to sin. Beause God does something to our nature, it is crucified and is out of action. When I was like that I just praised God all day long and was in constant prayer to Him . I had a feeling of being alive that i had never known before. It was truly amazing. I cannot tell you how wonderful it was. It was eternal life.

Unless we are in this state we are walking in darkness as I am now. You have just seen Christians walking in darkness and that is why you don't get your questions answered and poor fools do not know they are in darkness and they do not listen to me or did not rather when I was preaching the gospel.

Brenda

In a message dated 1/11/2006 12:55:26 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, erobertson@juno.com writes:
Mark,
It seems as if you have selected the Church of the Nazarene for some
interesting comments. What contact have you had with the Church of the
Nazarene?

Subject: Re: Question
Date: 1/13/2006 10:12:37 A.M. Pacific Standard Time
From:
To: JCnot4me@aol.com

I appreciate your quick reply. A couple more questions, please for now. What part of the country did you grow up in and why just the summers going to the Church of the Nazarene? Also, the verse you quoted is interesting, I would like to respond to it. You have not become an enemy because of your perspective.

To JCnot4me,

I stumbled upon your web page while researching something about the
Nazarene denomination. Your web page, I'm sorry to say, was simply
ridiculous! I've been a Nazarene for 43 years (all my life!), went to a
Nazarene college, married a Nazarene whose grandfather was a Nazarene
minister, and have NEVER, EVER, NEVER, EVER been told that 'Entire
Sanctification' meant I would be perfect or incapable of sinning! Good
grief! If that were true, the denomination would have collapsed ages ago.
You have CLEARLY misunderstood what you've heard and/or read regarding
the Nazarene belief of entire sanctification!!

Mark Smith here} Gee, how did you manage to miss THIS doctrine when it is so clearly a basic part of your religion? Were you paying attention in Sunday School, or where you doing something more useful like reading comic books??? I quoted from Dr. Greathouse who was the General Superintendent of your entire church. You pretending ignorance of what he says is like a Catholic claiming to not have heard the pope discussing religion. How could you be such a "great" Nazarene and be so uninformed????

This is the best way I've heard salvation and 'entire sanctification'
described:

You are SAVED when you recognize you have sinned and ask Jesus Christ,
who took all our sins on himself the day he died on the cross, to forgive
you. At that point, you have EVERYTHING that Jesus/God has to give: Love,
grace, mercy, forgiveness, a hope & a future with Him, etc. etc.
Essentially, you have ALL of HIM!

Mark Smith here} You yourself show signs of Nazarene doublethink. You state above that at salvation one has EVERYTHING that your gods have to offer. Yet your very next paragraph (see below) contradicts what you just wrote, as there is even MORE to be had!!! So which is it: upon being saved one has or does NOT have EVERYTHING??? Why, you are of the faith of "imperfect perfection" so why should I expect a rational answer from you???

ENTIRE SANCTIFICATION comes when you allow God's Holy Spirit to live
inside you after you've been 'saved' or forgiven. He cleaned out all the
yucky junk in your heart when you asked Him to forgive you, and now your
heart is ready for Him and you're VERY WILLING to live the way God wants
you to. No more sinning ON PURPOSE. The way Jesus lived when he lived on
earth. Being obedient to the Father. Studying His Word. Praying. Helping
the sick & the needy. Spreading the Good News. Simply put: God now has
ALL of YOU!

Mark Smith here} Again, the mental gymnastics! What you wrote above (in blue) about being as perfect as Jesus was, is 100% against what you wrote below (in blue) where you admit you'll screw up. Of COURSE YOU see nothing wrong with the concept of "imperfect perfection". Your brain is already clearly beyond being rational, you, you, you... NAZARENE!!!!

BUT....He didn't wave a magic wand and make you into a perfect person
that won't ever make a mistake, because you will. BUT... you no longer
WANT to do anything that would cause Him to grieve, which is what sin
does. God's Spirit lives in you, so when you do something that is wrong,
you'll know it in a heartbeat!! So you confess it, it's forgiven, life is
good again, and you go on with your life, trying your best not to screw
up again! The difference between the YOU now and the YOU then is that you
RECOGNIZE sin for what it is; you don't WANT to sin; and you work really
hard NOT to sin. NO PEFECTION INVOVLED!!!!! Just an obedient
heart!!!!!!!!

So there is the Nazarene doctrine in a nutshell. Feel free to e-mail me
if you have any questions.

~Michelle

Mark Smith here} Well, thank you for your well thought-out (for a Fundy) response. Next, you'll refute the entire theory of evolution with a 6 word quip. Good research.