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 Monkey Walking Upright |
Chris 7-4-04 &
8/23/04
Subj: Oops, last comments
Date: 7/4/2004 5:21:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Chris
To: JCnot4me@aol.com
Sent from the Internet (Details)
3 more things, and these are a lot shorter:
Many times you skip right over the parts where it says
what any given nation or
people has done to deserve such punishment.
Mark Smith here} Like babies wetting their diapers, right? Or how about a fetus kicking the mother from the inside? Many babies and fetuses were killed in Noah's Flood. Yes, they must have "deserved such punishment".
Chris here} Actually, theirs was quite a reward. Those who are killed before they are supposed to know the difference between right and wrong go to Heaven. They got quite a discount, in my opinion, not having to go through life and figure out whether or not to follow God.
Mark Smith here} Chris, one wish of mine is that one day you may see yourself as others see you now. The very idea that killing babies is a GOOD thing, is just beyond sick. I guess though, from a Christian worldview, the more babies killed the better- that IS the logical conclusion of following your beliefs. I guess then also that the bombing of the Beslan school in southern Russia a few days ago, where over 150 little kids got turned into instant hamburger- I guess you were just jumping up and down in JOY and GLEE, thanking your Biblegod for such a WONDERFUL thing- all these "little souls" being sent straight to heaven. Chris, your religion makes me sick, but I'm glad for people like you so I can expose these ugly truths to those maybe considering joining your religion.
Also, on your big "Universe According to Biblegod" drawing, you stretch a lot of
what is said in the Bible to your own meaning. Some of those include birds
flying in space, the problem with the 7 days, and the blocking out of the sun.
It says that birds fly on the "face" of the firmament, which would be the sky
(he's obviously speaking metaphorically)
Mark Smith here} How do YOU know if he's speaking metaphorically or not? YOU are approaching the text as the end product of THOUSANDS of years of scientific advancement- to YOU when someone says the birds fly in heaven, YOU take it as a metaphor. To the ancient ignorant masses, such things were a possibility. Remember: those geniuses thought they could even build a building tall enough to climb up and get god!!! (By the way, Biblegod even believed such crap- I guess he flunked Astronomy 101 in college.)
Chris here} God did quite a few things in the Old Testament time partially because the people would not be able to accept something any other way. Like you said, we come from “THOUSANDS of years of scientific advancement”. If God were to tell them the reality of nature rather than speak metaphorically, He would only frighten them or cause them not to believe. Look at the history of the church (since that’s almost what we’re dealing with anyway): many times, they were so insistent on keeping tradition that they denied things of the universe that we know to be true today. Galileo, portions of evolution (not the whole thing), and many more things have upset the church in spite of their reality.
Mark Smith here} So you are admitting then that Biblegod LIED to those people, and if THOSE people, why not us today? How much about Jesus will turn out to be nothing but LIES??? WHY do you continue to worship a deity you yourself have labeled a LIAR???
On the topic of the Tower of Babel, God did not try to stop them from reaching Him, but rather from progressing too fast. In His plan, the things they were discovering would not have been fit for them had they continued their progress at such a rapid rate. If you consider how fast we are making progress today now that English is becoming more widely used, you can understand their situation, too.
Mark Smith here} Gee, maybe you should actually READ the Bible before you DISCUSS the Bible, for that is exactly the reason the Bible says Biblegod stopped them- they were on the verge of reaching heaven- with a tower!!!
Another thought: probably the only reason they thought that they could reach God was because they had so many developments/discoveries in architecture (you get good at something, you become overconfident, etc.). That means that they would have to have some kind of good sense, and good sense says that when you look up at the sky, it doesn’t have a face. They weren’t stupid, they just didn’t have as many things to build off of, scientifically, so the tools they had would not allow them to even consider some of our modern discoveries. Metaphors are fairly basic and have existed all throughout history. They are an application of the creative human mind.
Mark Smith here} It wasn't just THEY that thought that- your GOD also was worried about it. That means your Biblegod is a dumbass that had no idea how big the universe really is. YOUR Biblegod thought that the universe ended just a few hundred feet above the ground.
The thing about all the light reaching earth in a day is also misunderstood. If my God created the universe and set it's laws, surely it will comply with His laws, as well.
Mark Smith here} What's misunderstood? That's exactly what the text says. If ANYthing is without understanding here, it's you. R-E-A-D the text- please! WHEN will you Christians EVER start reading your own darn book!!! Why must it always be me, the Atheist, that has to teach you what your own book says? That's what the damn text says. Stop putting words in the author's pen.
Chris here} “Then God said, ‘Let there be light’; and there was light.” (Genesis 1:3). I don’t see in the text the part that you are referring to where it states that light instantaneously appeared on earth. Here’s a recent example: Dubya told the troops to go to Iraq. A bit later, they arrive.
…and there were troops.
Mark Smith here} It says that these lights were VISIBLE on earth within the first week, which means their light HAD reached the earth. Read the text, sir. Read the text. The universe of Biblegod is small, VERY small- something you'd expect of a manmade concoction. The text says in Genesis 1:14-19 (KJV),
- 1:14
- And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
- 1:15
- And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
- 1:16
- And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
- 1:17
- And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
- 1:18
- And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
- 1:19
- And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
These lights from the stars were "in the firmament of the heaven" which means the sky as viewed from the earth, which means that light which in reality might takes a thousand years to reach Earth, reached Earth the same day they were created. This is IMPOSSIBLE, and proves the Genesis story is a crock of shit.
In the Hebrew text there is a different word used for "day" in
Genesis than almost everywhere else in the Bible. Contrary to what even some
concordances say (but give no proof of), the "day" used in Genesis could very
well be an indefinite period of time; however, since we know light is a
particle, God could have also created the particles from here to all of the
stars. This means that either theory works. I have a whole long explanation for
a bunch of creation issues, but I won't go into that.
Finally, but not the last thing that I thought was wrong,
the Bible in
Revelations does not say that the day was 1/3 shorter, it just says that the sun
did not give light for 1/3 of the day. If he blocked out part of the sun, this
would only make sense. I know that if you block out 1/3 of the sun, you will
still get light (just dimmer), but John is just describing these things as best
as he can. To take the Bible completely literally when obviously it is trying to
speak metaphorically will only lead you to make incorrect conclusions.
Chris here} I notice you didn’t comment on this last part. This is a very important part of knowing what is and is not meant by the Bible, because the root words sometimes give us very good insight into what exactly is being said by the Bible.
Mark Smith here} Well now I will respond. Your unfounded assumption regarding the word "day" is incorrect, and besides, you were too lazy to even offer up any documentation to prove it. I get tired of responding to unfounded stupid claims.
Your second error: the book of Revelation (no "s" on the name): when it says the day was 1/3 shorter due to 1/3 of the sun having been covered, that is just plain wrong, and if you have had even an elementary "Introduction to Astronomy" class you'd know this. I can't educate you in what you should have already had. And your "explanation" is just plain gobbledegook- what the HELL were you trying to communicate???
I don't hold any of these things against you, because a good portion of the
so-called "Christian" world has made a mockery out of what the religion is truly
supposed to be about.
From,
Chris
"If life hands you a melon, life is dislexic." -myself
Subject: Re: Responses to the Universe
Date: 9/9/2004 9:25:50 PM Pacific Standard Time
From:
To: JCnot4me@aol.com
This is getting kinda long, so I will only quote parts of what you say and respond to them.
"I guess though, from a Christian worldview, the more babies killed the better..."
No, that is entirely false. The death of
a baby is a terrible thing, but God has the power to make a terrible thing
wonderful. Think of it as a lesser good outcome. Under ideal
circumstances, the societies God demolished in the flood would have done no
wrong, and therefore God would reward them; however, they were not perfect, and
God had to punish them (for reasons I don't have time to go into). He made as
much good come out of the situation as possible without interfering with free
will.
Mark Smith here} You are good at making claims, but terrible at backing them up. I gave you reasons BASED UPON CHRISTIAN LOGIC AND THEOLOGY that show the killing of babies is the Christian thing to do- I even wrote a whole essay on this topic- it's called "Abortion: The Christian Thing to Do" and it's on the following webpage of mine:
I give reasons to back up the things I argue for; I'm still waiting for yours. Just saying so is NOT a reason. I'm still waiting for you to show why the rampant killing of babies is NOT the Christian thing to do.
"So you are admitting then that Biblegod LIED to those people..."
No, lying is slightly different.
For example, in physics, you were probably taught that Force = Mass x
Acceleration. In reality, this equation isn't true; it is a simplification of
our universe so that we can deal with everyday objects. On a more advanced
level, there is some kind of quantum physics equation that is the extent of
human advancement. Did God lie to these people? No, He only simplified.
Mark Smith here} God how this reminds me of Bill Clinton and his "is-is" bullshit. No Chris, when Biblegod imparts information to people that is not true, that is a LIE, and no amount of mental gymnastics can get around that. When Biblegod imparts information to people that the Earth is flat, that the stars are only a few hundred miles away, that heaven can be reached with a tall ladder, that stars can crash to the earth etc etc, these are LIES- these are BULLSHIT. Stop trying to rationalize this away.
"...that is exactly the reason the Bible says Biblegod stopped them- they were
on the verge of reaching heaven- with a tower!!!"
Find the part where the Bible says that
God was afraid of them actually reaching Him with a tower and show it to me.
The Mormon "Bible" doesn't count. He acknowledges that they were trying to get
to Heaven, and the Bible states that they were progressing very fast, but it
does not state that they were progressing very quickly towards heaven. Progress
and tower height are two different things. In other words, their goal was
foolish, but in the process of seeking that goal, they were progressing their
technology too rapidly.
Mark Smith here} Below is the entire section in question from the King James Bible. I read that, I read it again, I read it a third time. Each and every time I read it, the same thing comes thru: your Biblegod was worried about these people building a tower so tall that they could climb up it, and into heaven.
Genesis 11
1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
When Biblegod says "now nothing will be restrained from them which they have imagined to do" and what they have just "imagined to do" and in fact were in the PROCESS of doing AT THE TIME is to "build... a tower whose top may reach into heaven" and then Biblegod confounds their language to prevent what they "have imagined to do" WHAT PART OF THIS ENGLISH LANGUAGE DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND??? This is as clear as anyone can make it, and if you are PRETENDING to not understand it, you are only pretending so in order to not make your Biblegod look like an idiot.
The text says what it says, and a million Christians claiming otherwise can not change this. And according to the text, heaven can be reached by building a tall tower and Biblegod agrees with this which is why Biblegod came down to put a halt to this construction project.
In short, the Bible and its Biblegod think that heaven is just a few hundred feet above the surface of the earth, and you as a Christian need to live with this OR drop your Christianity as I did and be SET FREE in the truth of the REAL universe. But don't, please don't lie to me or to yourself that this text says something else.
"It says that these lights were VISIBLE on earth within the first week..."
Again, you disregard my point on the
meaning of the Hebrew word "day". Get any Bible concordance and look up
the Hebrew word used for "day" in Genesis. Read the definition but don't give
too much value to it, since this has been a hot political topic for many
centuries and is prone to have a skewed definition. Instead, look at all the
times that it is used throughout the Bible. As opposed to other Hebrew words
that literally mean a 24-hour period, the Genesis-day is used quite
infrequently. He obviously means something different when He says this.
Mark Smith here} I will repeat myself, but here goes: I asked you for documentation on this, I said you'd been too lazy to provide such, and I see it again: you are STILL too lazy to provide this. Hot air claims mean nothing to me. PROVE YOUR POINT.
The word "day" is CLEARLY defined in the text itself in Genesis chapter 1, where it says}
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
I don't know how much clearer it can get than this, but then again, YOU are a Christian so you're used to looking at a text that proves you wrong and then IGNORING everything it says.
- The text DEFINES a day as having a "morning" and and an "evening".
- The text DEFINES a day as being separate from the "darkness".
- The text DEFINES the light as being called DAY, and the darkness as being called NIGHT. Day, and Night = a DAY.
What part of the above DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND??? You don't even need a damn concordance for this- the first chapter of Genesis used the word "day" and then proceeds to define the word, and the word defined is the same definition used today.
Once again, the world gets to see how a Christian Fundy minds operates: defend the fort of false beliefs no matter how much truth you guys have to trash. The closed mindedness of you folks make me sick. The Book of Genesis teaches the entire universe was created within the time span of seven (7) normal earth days and no amount of Clinton-like "is-is" bullshit can change that. Hell, even the Creationist web sites agree with me on that! Dude- LEARN YOUR BIBLE. This is what your book says- stop lying about it.
"...when it says the day was 1/3 shorter due to 1/3 of the sun having been
covered, that is just plain wrong, and if you have had even an elementary
"Introduction to Astronomy" class you'd know this. I can't educate you in what
you should have already had."
Quit making quick conclusions and think about it: if you cover up
1/3 of the sun from either the first
part that appears over our horizon to somewhere towards the center or from the
last part that disappears over the horizon to somewhere towards the center, you
have 1/3 less day. If you have had even an elementary "Introduction to
Using Your Brain Instead of Memorizing Information" class (which is not offered,
unfortunately), you would know this.
Mark Smith here} Once again I, the Atheist, have to teach a Christian, Chris, what his own book says. Why me, Lord, why me??? When will the Christians get off their lazy intellectual asses and study their own fucking book??? WHY MUST I BE THEIR BIBLE TEACHER???? It is such a burden, but here I go again...
Revelation 8:12 (KJV) says the following:
And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
HOW can you read that and not understand what it says? AGAIN, you DO know what it CLEARLY says but being a Christian you feel no remorse in LYING about it- for the end justifies the means for you.
It says that "the day shone not for a third part of it". The way the REAL universe works (not the universe in that book of myths called the Bible) is that the Earth rotates about its axis once every 24 or so hours. When the earth rotates itself between YOU and the SUN, that is called "night". That is called night, and that is the ONLY way that night can be created. Therefore, when the book of myths called the Bible claims that smiting a third of the sun results in a third part of the day being removed, the only means of accomplishing this would be to speed UP the rotation of the Earth about its axis.
Translated into simple laymen terms, it means you could hold up your hand to block out 1/3 of the sun and this act would result in the Earth rotating 66% faster- THIS is what the Bible is claiming. Sorry if your basic Christian DISHONESTY won't let you admit this.
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